Originally posted 10-21-06
I recently entangled myself in stupidity. I don't know why I did it, but I was drawn in like a moth to a flame...or perhaps a better metaphor is that I was drawn in like me to Guitar Center. I don't know why I do stupid stuff like this, but I chose to entagle myself with the highest form of stupidity.
I guess we all have this inherent need to have the answers. I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever actually claim to have the answers, but I think that all of us in our right minds still have thoughts of needing to know the answers to the questions of life. We have to be absolutely sure that we're not living our lives in pursuit of something stupid or false when we could be pursuing what is the best thing for us.
For some, that pursuit is money and fame and fortune. For some, the pursuit is just pure joy or hedonism. For some, the pursuit is God because that's what we feel is truth. In doing all of these things, we all hope that we have the right answer to the question. A lot of times, the question we have is wrong in the first place, so of course the answer is wrong...but that's neither here nor there.In my experience, which is somewhat vast (though obviously not all-inclusive), I have found that Christians many times are the worst about feeling the need to have the answers. Perhaps it is because we are taught from the beginning that we have the answers to life's biggest questions, so we inherantly need to feel as though we have said answers.
When it comes to any religion, when someone "buys" into it, then, if it is serious, then it is a complete life change. Because of this complete life change then it is easy to fall into the trap of suddenly feeling as though you know everything or that you have to know everything in order to not look like a fool to all of your friends as you try to convert them.
The problem with all of this is that life in and of itself is inherantly devoid of real answers.
Uh-oh...Christians are freaking out! WHAT?!!! WE DON'T HAVE THE ANSWERS?!!! WE HAVE THE BIBLE!!! THAT IS ALL THE ANSWERS WE NEED!!!
Well, that may very well be true for you, but for a person unfamiliar with Christianity or Christian dogma, then that is a hard pill to swallow. Especially when the Christian who introduces them to Christianity assumes that they (the non-Christian) has none of the answers while the Chrsitian has all the answers. Pride being pride, that usually doesn't bode well.
Now, before I move on, I should qualify what I have said thus far and define what I mean by answers. The dictionary gives this simple definition: "a correct response ". I think the "answers" that I'm talking about are perhaps a little deeper than the simplicity of that definition. What I am talking about as an answer would be more along the lines of not having the correct response, but having the knowledge that goes behind the correct response, or a surety that the "correct response" is indeed correct.
As I said before, life is devoid of this surety, of this knowledge that the correct is correct. When it comes to God and heaven and hell and a belief in Christ, we can not be absolutely sure. There is no scientific test that could prove that God is real. We can measure the scientific distance to the sun, but we can not define the distance to heaven or hell. There is no scientific means to measure salvation, as there is to define how much blood is in the human body. It all comes down to faith. And along with faith comes a degree of uncertainty that the things that we have faith in are somehow not quite right.
I have read of magicians/stunt artists having complete faith in a wire system or a board, only to have those things misfunction as the artists fall to their (what I would imagine) painful death. They had faith in something and their faith was misplaced.
As Christians, we put our faith in a book written by a bunch of men who claim to have been inspired by the Spirit of God. Okay, I'm a Christian and that sounds both fishy and spooky to me...just try to explain that to someone who has never heard that God is more than something that follows "oh my...". It seems a little fishy that these men who are trying to spread a religion would then back their claims up by saying, "No, I was inspired by the Spirit of God!" In order to believe what we believe, we must have faith that these men really were inspired.
The point of all this is that we as Christians must understand the frailty of our faith. We should never be arrogant about the fact that we have the answers - or that we think we have the answers. Our goal should be to admit that, though we don't have all the answers, we do believe that the answers we have come to are correct and make the most sense.
It doesn't "make sense" to believe in something that we can't see or touch or hear or feel. But it makes sense that this world could not have just happened by chance. It makes sense that if someone did create the world it would have to be a higher being and if their is a Higher Being, then it is natural that I should want to be with my Creator. If God is that Creator, then how do I get to Him? Is it by being good? Well, it makes sense that I could never be good enough because my bad certainly outweighs whatever good I can do. But when I hear the story that Jesus lived a perfect life and died, came back to life and all I have to do is believe that and I can spend eternity with my Creator...well that makes sense to me. Are there holes in what makes sense and what simply takes faith? Heck, yes! But no matter what you believe in, there are holes between logic and faith, it's a simple fact of life. At least that makes more sense to me than simply trying to make my good outweigh my bad.
Recently, I found a website claiming to be the top500 Fundamental websites in the world. Of course, being a former conservative fundamentalist, I decided to check it out. I found forums where fundies discussed certain aspects of life, and other forums where the "Fighting Fundies" came out in droves to display their idiocy. As I read through different thoughts, I found myself being sucked into these discussions on the King James Version and on issues that I haven't throught about in years. I even partook in a discussion on the KJV-only issue. I'm such an idiot! I had forgotten how moronic and dead-set these people are in their ways! It is simply amazing.
Then, it occurred to me that for these people it easier to hold on to a list of rules because it is easy. If you know all the answers then you have nothing to worry about...your faith is dead set. If you have all the answers (and your answers are the only answers) then perhaps it is an easier sell (though I highly doubt it). Then it made me wonder about my own life and how dead-set I am in my ways...wonder how dead-set I am that I have the answers and I had to remind myself again...my faith is frail, and though I honestly believe that the things that I believe are absolutely true, it still takes faith. And because it takes faith, there's a measure of unsurety. Perhaps the Fundies are right.
But I doubt it.
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25 comments:
A brave post here, Chris. I mean brave as in honest and vulnerable. Well, this is still not coming out right. I mean it in a complimentary way. :-)
I completely agree with your take on life and its lack of answers. I think what Romans 1 is trying to tell us is that life gets us asking particular questions, like "Why wouldn't there be a Creator?" and "Boy, if there were, the Creator would certainly be pretty big stuff, right?" And then the work of God in individual hearts gives us something really different than any "answers" we're used to getting. For some reason, Aslan's concept of "the deep magic" comes to mind. It's convincing, in a way, but you kind of have to be tuned in on your own in order to get it. Like I think in one of the other Narnia books, believers can hear Aslan's roar, but unbelievers can't, or something like that.
I think image-bearers like Lewis and you and me might find it easier to understand the concept than many other believers: our faith isn't something that we can simply prove to others, nor is it something we should pretend that we know like God knows.
The plain PoMo truth of the matter is that each of us is a finite knower, so even if God decides to share Truth with us (which is exactly what happens in salvation), we can only hold or even understand a little piece of it. Of course, since He also decided to communicate to some other people throughout history so that we could have the Bible, we know that the essential part of each of our pieces of truth is about Christ. But I know that you see the world a little differently than I do, and that you know God differently than I do. To pretend otherwise would be, well, pretending.
All that said, there is a definite place for growing in your faith. The Sunday School class we used to go to at Heritage was fantastic this way in keeping us humble and yet confident (the unique role of the believer).
Would love to talk more about this sometime(s).
Could you give an example or two of the specific "answers" Christians claim to have?
Chris, I have something to admit.
My wife and I saw you on American Idol last night, and I had to Google you. <=0o That's how I stumbled across this.
We were quite impressed by your audition, but I have to say that I'm far more interested in you now because of your blog.
In response to this particular post...
I believe that you and I would agree to many things here. I, too, continue to struggle with where reason ends and faith begins. I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, fully complete and without error. However, our fallen minds don't always interpret his words correctly...much in the same way that Jesus's disciples frequently misinterpreted His direct teachings.
Do I have proof that the Bible is so? No. But if I take a faith position that God is indeed real and created me along with everything else, then, being created in His image, I must also believe that He would want me to know that somehow. I must believe that He would take measures to preserve that word throughout time so that I might hear it 2,000, 10,000, or even an eternity later.
Along the same lines as Will, I believe that the Bible is not something that can be discovered. It must be revealed. And there is only one source of Revelation present in the Bible. There are many who have read the Scriptures and heard Jesus's words, however, it wasn't until Jesus "opened their hearts" to them, that they began to truly understand anything. Like salvation, revelation is also an action taken by God. We can make ourselves more and more available to it, and study and dissect. But only when we pray for God to open our hearts does the Word truly come to life and take hold.
Thanks for your thoughts. I've very much enjoyed reading them. I will make sure to come back and see what else you're up to.
God's Blessings in all your endeavors.
Hey Chris, your vocal talents are great. Please post some music if you have recoreded any.
I am planting a church in the middle of a Iowa college town with a population of about 100,000 people. It is a constant wrestling for me to have a right balance and perspective on my understanding of Truth. I too grew up in a fundamentaist environment with "all the answers" but God has openned my eyes to many things in regard to how I relate to the culture around me. I'm sure I use to piss other people off by thinking I had everything screwed down tight. I was blinded to how repulsive that was to the unsaved. It got in the way of Jesus. Anyway, thanks for the encouraging post. Use your influence well.
later.
Chris.
Glanced at the wake up news on 1/31 and saw someone making Paula Abdul laugh that look alot like a guy I used to see on the platform at NHCC. What the heck - it IS him! Even though those of us in the general-pub are on serious time-delay versus your current Idol reality, I hope things go very well for you!
All the hubbub got me googlin' and I ran across this page. Spent time reading your thoughts and have grown very curious about where you are spiritually and where you're headed.
Yes everyone's looking for answers, but I'm more fascinated by the condition that drives the search.
The Inescapable Deficiency.
Everyone whose mind is in reasonable working order feels it. At the root of every earnest question is our inexpressible yearning for whatever it is that will finally and fully fill the gaping maw of our need. The angst of it breathes on us while we sleep, and dogs us through our daily movements. It's crazy! - Since when did everyone come up with the same feeling that something's missing!! Observe a bit longer and it's clear that everything we all do is an attempt to sate that need.
So, this curious (not confrontational, I promise) question for you. How is the Inescapable Deficiency related to your drive for rock-stardom? It'd be great to hear your thoughts about it if you have time to put them down anymore.
Incidentally, the Grand Answer I'm now living with is this:
The gratification I'm craving will never be fully experienced in this body, but I will experience it fully nevertheless. The Power you sing about on track 5 of Someone Just Like You is carrying me all the way to that Complete Satisfaction.
But this waiting, this waiting . . .
Very nice discussion. I would say one thing, though. Regarding people who are dead-set on an idea and have a hard time shifting it, I think that some people just have more tolerance for ambiguity than do others.
Hello Chris,
First I would like to say I am amazed at your voice. American Idol brought you to the forefront. I spent a great deal of my life living in Aiken, and even a few years in the Spartanburg/Greenville area. Unfortunatly you were a bit younger than myself during my time there. I currently reside in Atlanta.
I am posting this because I am interested in your views. I grew up in a Southern Babtist home, then chose a more pentacostal way when I was a teen, then grew up into an adult and left modern "Christianity" behind. I was a youth minister and won awards both in High School and in national competitions for the church. But I left that behind because of the lack of Love, Understanding and the abundance of hypocracy and judgement from people claiming to have faith. I am happy and peaceful with my choices, and have no desire to redefine my "faith". I am Pagan.
This means only one thing. I follow no man's advice or path toward inner peace and Truth. I follow what I know in my spirit to be real and just. I do not push my belief on others and do not appreciate others who insist on being the "only real way" to knowledge or "salvation".
So thank you for your blog. I will be reading it and keeping track of you and your band. Thank you for your gift and thank you for allowing me to experience you.
Sincerely,
Mark
interesting insights, but you seem to heavily doubt certain things, so here's my 2c. i think reason and faith is not opposed to each other but is complimentary; if not faith enlightens reason, because God if of supernatural order, which the finite mind alone will never in this life decipher. God is mystery personified, as i am so fondly to hear. :) Moreso, Christ claims to be 'the Truth, the Way and the Life' and that is quite enough to invigorate me in believing and trusting. :) hope to hear more theological musings. :)
Is it wrong not to feel guilty for choosing not to read the other comments, in order that my own comment is original in content? At any rate, I don't have time to read them, but I do have a comment, original or not. :)
My husband Jeromy and I have seen the HUGE need for the local church to offer classes/courses in theology. I think most pew-sitting Christians hold to a blind faith, and that the biggest reason they fear sharing their faith is because they don't know what they believe or why, or at least can't explain it. I went to Bible college in Minnesota and still don't have answers to many, MANY questions! Maybe the church is comfortable with settling for this kind of shallow understanding of their faith. It IS easier, like you said, to be ignorant about tough questions and then simply follow a list of rules.
Christians today want to appear spiritual/godly. We want to KNOW we are ok, but we don't want to check our innermost being that God knows all too well. We're afriad of what we'll find...that we're not as spiritual as we thought. We are afraid we will find complacency and arrogance.
But...a NEW heart will push past the tension and probe the depths. That's maturity. True faith will WANT to grasp concepts like "sola scriptura" and understand why the ESV version of the Bible is just as ok to read as the KJV, that it is still is innerrant and inspired. We will seek out and take advantage of opportunites to grow in knowledge and truth, so that we can accurately pave the way for a lost soul to know our Savior too. But at least for our own learning experience!
The fact is, we CAN find answers to most of life's questions, at least with as much revelation as God has given us. (We can't, however, accurately solve age-old debates such as God's sovereignty vs. man's free will nor explain the Trinity, which is not even a biblical term, etc. Because God is God, there will always be some element of mystery.) We can understand more than we think. We shrink from the questions of others because they boggle our own minds when, if only the church (I say the church because that should be the highest equipping priority) would do more than preach morality and allow their congregation--struggling saints like you and me--the chance to really KNOW our faith. But instead they resort to Sunday School lessons and potlucks. There is no excuse with the wealth of resources out there from which to choose.
Jeromy has been taking a couple of online theology classes from Bible.org called the Theology Program (Michael Patten & Rhome Dyke). Even though I already have a Bible degree I have been fascinated going through the material and video sessions with him. I am learning things that wasn't even taught in my own doctrine classes. These classes are helping me understand things like why I choose to attend a Baptist church, and why I believe one cannot lose their salvation. They answer questions ALL believers hold in their hearts but just don't care enough to pursue answers, or believe they are simply out there. Or, perhaps they are afaid of what God might ask of them once they lose their ignorance.
Tara (Sarah's second cousin on Joanne's side)
Grrrrr! I didn't get to finish my soap box! Ok, well I'll wrap it up by saying theology is good and needed and too often underrated among believers in general. There is maturity in wanting to know what you believe and why. It's sanctifying and God calls us to it. We can only feast on "milk" for so long before we are found out!
However, there is a balance that becomes dangerously difficult when one begins to pursue theology. I have met too many seminary students and grads who speak of their simple faith and passion for God drying up because they have immersed themselves in words like efficatious, soteriology, and imputation.
In sum, my husband and I think the church is sub-par when it comes to equipping its saints in this way. Each generation of ignorant Christians is only going to produce the same. At the same time, teaching theology for the purpose of knowing God and desiring Him more is the objective that is probably most biblical. We study because we love God and want to emulate His Son, not because it will make us into prideful know-it-alls and great debators. We are to speak the truth in love, but we must first be thoroughly familiar with what that truth is.
Thanks for the discussion, Chris.
Tara
I think this is an awesome point you've made here. I have grown up with theology taped to my forehead so to speak. My dad is a missionary and my mom works at a church. I really believe that what you're saying is so true!!! We don't know (for sure) that there is a creator but whay shouldn't we!! The evidence is all around us. I don't know how you could possibly believe in anything that just tells you that this incredible world is due to a chemical explosion! But unfortunatly, some people do believe that.
I think you're right that none of us have the answers and I really agree with your point of view on so many of these things. There is a "measure of unsurety" and we really don't have all those answers!
Again thatnks so much for putting thi son here and I hope to here more from you abou this subject!!!
Kyle
Rock on, you rockstar! Show them out there in Hollywood what a man of Christ can do and be - NOT hide under a rock but BE a rocker.
I agre with Bret S, Chris. You're completely correct that faith in a book would be somewhat frail -- that is, if it were just a book. It's the only book I've ever read that I've been unable to find a fault in. Any faults I had thought I found were shown to me later as true by the Spirit.
All I can say is this: I can use science to measure the area of the sun -- but not directly. It's the same way with God.
Great job tonight, by the way. You blew us all away!!!
Chris,
As you stated about yourself: "I could never be good enough because my bad certainly outweighs whatever good I do." ... and even asked your readers, "Doesn't this make sense?" Yes, it definitely makes sense; however, based on your comment, would it not make sense that the Bible WAS written my men who were INSPIRED by God because those men, like yourself, like myself, like ANY human being, would NEVER have been good enough ON THEIR OWN to have written the Bible, aka, the Word OF GOD, which indicates that had It not been inspired by God, it would be known to this day as the Word of Men! You are right, the "Fundies" (or non-Fundies for that matter) do not have all the answers. They don't have to when God's Word DOES! And if you or any of us try to understand It all, we'll go CRAZY!!
God has put all the thought and understanding into His Word, and it is up to His followers to LIVE IT, yes, by faith ... NOT to understand it. That will never happen as long as we are human!
One more point ... What it is all going to come down to IN THE END will not be whether we're a "Fundie" or a "non-Fundie", (fighting or not), nor whether we are black or white (or any other color "in the rainbow of life")... it is going to be whether we are saved or lost. Perhaps as a "former conservative fundamentalist" as you referred to yourself and even as a "Christ follower", you may no longer call our soul's "end condition" as "saved or lost." ... but that does not change the fact that it is ALL that really matters which is,if we are ready to meet out Creator in THE END, which is really the BEGINNING (of eternity).
I love the name of your band, "Half Past*Forever", but I was just wondering, is that anywhere near the "Twelfth of Never"?! (the song is "Time in a Bottle", ... and that should give you a clue of my age!!!
Good luck on American Idol. I chose you as my favorite when you auditioned!
Re The Ritzs' remarks about how the 'inescapable deficiency' relates to your wanting to be a rock star....well, in my view, it's no different than how it relates to someone who wants to be a doctor, or to someone who wants to be a lawyer, or to someone who wants to make Subway sandwiches. There is temptation waiting for the christian, no matter one's occupation, just as there is the command to live righteously no matter one's occupation.
So, in my view, that Chris wants to be a rock star is pretty irrelevent. His choices as he walks that path are what are important, just as they are for anyone else. 'For me to live is Christ...' That's the challenge for us all.
Carol
The Bible offers just as many answers as it does questions. It is an amazing book, and not one to be taken lightly or used as a weapon against a child of God. In my opinion, the book offers life lessons which have been handed down from age to age and translated time and time again.
I also wanted to add that I think it's great that you seem to be moving away from or questioning the fundamental viewpoints that so many Christians have.
To me, it's all about showing Christ and He was love and forgiveness, not hatred and prejudice.
Heh Chris. The Bible does have answers, but there are a few walls in theology itself which hinder us. After getting a masters in theology I renounced the discipline as an effort of man to make sense of God's words. Rather, begin with Jesus and be sure you do not change, minimize, misappropriate or otherwise redefine Him and His truth and all the rest of the Word of God falls into place.
By realizing for instance that Paul's words are based on and consistent with all of Jesus words (esp. in regard to stuff like "the straitgate," and salvation, etc.) we can begin with a legitimate view of believing the Bible.
Sorry you feel like God has left you with a bum rap. But then maybe that is because you are giving God a bum rap, as the world's people look on in some amazement that you being a Christian do not seem to think holiness is important. Most of theology of the 20th C. gave us a Bible that was not holy.
Look in the book stores, and then look at Bibles in the olden days. It used to be called the Holy Bible, because it was unique from all books (or libraries) in the world. I am not contending for the KJV to be "holy." But the KJV was translated from the Textus Receptus, the recieved Bible, the Bible which those who believe in full preservation of God's words all adhere to, as did all the confessions of faith of the previous centuries!
I have a Scriptorium in the works. A beautiful place to check out all the modern versions and find out that they all stem from folks that trusted men not God. I have all the fine print of all the Bibles and these matters are really not so hard to actually become familiar with.
The Holy Spirit gave words in Greek for the New Testament and these are preserved in a particular format.
Yet religious academia and modern scholars believe they are restoring the Word of God! lol If God did not preserve the Holy Spirit's words we have absolutely nothing! No answers at all! Yet he did, and historical revisionism which is so deeply entrenched in all of academia, especially seminaries says we can not be sure we have every alpha and omega, every jot and title, or if we have it we will never know for instance if John was baptizing at Bethany beyond Jordan or Bethabara beyond Jordan.
Though, for instance, there is no account of any Bethany beyond Jordan, 20th C. many Bible mapmakers had to put a Bethany in there beyond Jordan with a questian mark. But no, John was baptizing at Behabara not Bethany [says the Textus Receptus]!
The one hundred plus translations of the 20th C. have to question that fact because most of them gave more or less authority to a new tradition, a tradition that said lets include some older, supposedly better manuscripts of the Bible despite the fact they have thousands and thousands of corruptions between themselves, (not to mention when compared with the traditionally recieved and preserved text of the New Testament, the Textus Receptus).
No, we don't have all the answers, but we do have all the answers we need! And guess what... I hope you have also enjoyed this privilege. When we have questions and pray about them God eventually answers them as we diligently seek Him and His preserved words! That has been my experience again and again.
BUT Chris, are you going to win and then stand up and say, "I want to thank, first of all my Lord Jesus that he helped me to win American Idol"?
Please do not. The Lord Jesus is not authorizing you to use your talent and God-given gifts to become the idol of our youth, and rocker of the nation.
Where does idolatry start and holiness begin I ask you. You obviously do not believe in a holy Bible or a holy life. Hence you cannot know. I am sorry. The vast large multitudes of non-seeking Christians happily buy up Bibles which they never read the fine print and investigate. These have many errors, the greatest of which is that it introduces great doubt as to which is best and even as to whether it matters!
Of course it matters!
Modern theology says, in unison, we must RESTORE the Bible. I find that as foolish, if not as sinful, as you standing up to thank your Lord Jesus for letting you win American Idol - or at least make it to the finals. Will you promise not to do this, FOR JESUS SAKE?
Idolatry and Blashpemy are both very dangerous things. How do you know you are not committing idolatry? I believe you are. But then I obviously believe the Bible speaks very carefully and gives all needed answers in regard to "idolatry." And you do not think you have sufficient evidence for most answers. If you use modern Bibles which I am sure you do then this doubt is immediately self-evident.
Doubt is not a virtue.
Wow, Roy, I didn't think that someone could post such a long, boring post and still sound so dumb. Good job. It's good of you to go into a blog and attempt to confront someone you've never met and will probably never meet. Great job on that one, buddy. Hope your worship of a translation works out well for you.
Peace and love,
C
Chris - also have seen you on American Idol.
I just wanted to comment briefly that it sounds like you're on the right path, but let me take you just one step further.
I think we must, as Christians concede that the Bible is not a perfect book, and that it doesn't necessarily hold all the answers. Ask your wife, for example, if she thinks that God's chosen messenger would choose this to say about her..
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
(1 Timothy)
Ask yourself if the God that you believe in would give his messenger a law that unruly children were to be stoned to death for their indiscretions.
I am also a believer, I believe in a God that is benevolent, that has created this beautiful world, but I believe the view of God taken by some Christians (even the ones who have written the books we hold dear) is skewed, and well, human. There's nothing wrong with being human, but to become scary and dogmatic is harmful not just for those particular people who espouse those beliefs but also to society as a whole.
It takes even greater faith to admit your doubt in things long accepted as high truth, but once you do get there, I feel you become closer to feeling good about yourself, and about the God that created you. We have to trust that we know this God's plan inside of ourselves, that we have a moral code embedded in our consciousness and we must use that code to guide us.
Thanks for raising the discussion.
"As Christians, we put our faith in a book written by a bunch of men who claim to have been inspired by the Spirit of God. Okay, I'm a Christian and that sounds both fishy and spooky to me..."
I really don't understand the problem. Just ask God sincerely to give you wisdom and discernment. Has He not also given you of the gift of the Holy Spirit? So, instead of relying on man's wisdom and understanding, why don't you ask Him for yourself and *trust* that He'll provide the answer. Depend on Him rather than the judgments of others (inc. mine!)
The human 'inherent need' for answers is not a bad thing. It only becomes a bad thing when you throw in a bunch of presumptuousness and pride along with it.
"I just wanted to comment briefly that it sounds like you're on the right path"
How do you know that?
"I think we must, as Christians concede that the Bible is not a perfect book, and that it doesn't necessarily hold all the answers."
No one says that it holds the answers to *all* the questions, just the most important ones. No one claims omniscience. It's the unbelievers who expect Christians to know everything. Blame it on the ridiculous debate culture.
"Ask your wife, for example, if she thinks that God's chosen messenger would choose this to say about her.."
It's not about what any of us think or even want, Chris. Consider this, if the Bible is true, then we really are fleshly, and our fleshly minds really are at enmity with Him. We are all blind, we are all flawed, we are all going to make mistakes in judgment. It's about what is *true*, not about what we want or think. Don't depend on human wisdom or rationalization.
BTW, I'm a wife. I'm not oppressed by my husband, and I freely choose to subject myself to him. The scripture doesn't teach that a leader should lord it over his subject. A leader works for the wellbeing of those who follow him. The husband cares for his bride. Remember Christ's example.
"Ask yourself if the God that you believe in would give his messenger a law that unruly children were to be stoned to death for their indiscretions."
Ask yourself whether you are being presumptuous before making quick judgments based on your feelings or illogical 'arguments from outrage'.
"I believe in a God that is benevolent, that has created this beautiful world,"
This beautiful world marred with sin, death, disease, and corruption. Atheists/agnostics call it "nature red in tooth and claw" and regularly question God's goodness because of the evil in this world. So, you have Chris, a number of different choices on what you will believe. Personally, I believe God created the world beautiful and good, until the fall distorted and corrupted everything. Believe what you will, though.
"but I believe the view of God taken by some Christians (even the ones who have written the books we hold dear) is skewed, and well, human."
Why? You've made many statements about what you believe and what is the 'right direction', but provide nothing to back it up. I at least ask Chris to pray about it. What do you offer but vain human reasoning? This doesn't do anything but cause harm. (Sorry, Chris)
"There's nothing wrong with being human, but to become scary and dogmatic is harmful not just for those particular people who espouse those beliefs but also to society as a whole."
Remember, Chris, if the Bible is true, then we know the world will hate us because we say that they do evil. We also know that we will be persecuted for our faith if we seek to truly follow Him. The darkness hates the light. To seek to be a friend of the world is to be an enemy of God. I'm not concerned over whether others see me as 'dogmatic'. They saw Jesus as dogmatic and scary, as well.
If standing on my convictions is called 'dogmatism', then I'll gladly cling to that label.
"It takes even greater faith to admit your doubt in things long accepted as high truth,"
That's not faith. That is honesty. Ultimately, while he aims his post at 'fundamentalists', this is really about his personal relationship with God.
I was raised in an agnostic household and held to agnostic feminist values. In this culture, questioning either of these values is considered one of the grossest sins. Dogmatism is on both sides of the fence.
*EVERYONE* is deadset in their ways, and very few are as openminded as they think they are. I know because I, too, used to get sucked into the debates..not just with Christians, but most often with atheists, agnostics, feminists, etc. Everyone's an 'idiot'.
"but once you do get there, I feel you become closer to feeling good about yourself, and about the God that created you."
Your feelings are irrelevant.
If Chris doesn't feel good about himself or God, then that only attests to my statement that this is a personal struggle of his relating to his relationship with God. As such, I'm not sure either of us are an authority as to how he'll feel in the future. I'm a fundamentalist believer and I feel good both about myself and God, because I trust in His goodness and because I know He is kind and patient and compassionate and merciful and faithful and true, so obviously your advice would not apply to me if I were in Chris's position. Do you know him personally to suppose that Chris might be different?
"We have to trust that we know this God's plan inside of ourselves, that we have a moral code embedded in our consciousness and we must use that code to guide us."
Why should we trust so in ourselves, our own wisdom, and our own strength?
It sounds to me like you are teaching a form of relativism. The Bible says that heart is desperately wicked and depraved, and that "a way may seem right to a man, but that way is the way of death". These things can be tested and observed in our world right now. How many evil people do evil because it seems 'right' to them? Every damn one. So, what makes you so special that you have a special perception of goodness in your conscience that is miraculously absent from many other people? Your conscience was molded by your upbringing, our culture, and worse of all, possibly distorted by the fall itself. Seek Him and His wisdom.
Don't be presumptuous that *you* have all the answers about morality, ethics, and God's plans buried in your conscience.
Maybe Chris will call me a moron and an idiot for being an 'evil' fundamentalist..but, oh well, I'm not interested in debate or in his approval.
Faith isn't frail. Faith can move mountains. Faith can raise the dead. Faith can heal the sick.
"Then, it occurred to me that for these people it easier to hold on to a list of rules because it is easy. If you know all the answers then you have nothing to worry about...your faith is dead set."
I'd be careful with these quick judgments on what is in the hearts and minds of other people. That, too, is a form of pride.
Chris, I appreciate the impulse behind your post. God has given you a keen mind along with your great voice. I encourage you to cling to Jesus, and to remember that he is described as "the Word" in the book of John. I think the reliability of Scripture is stronger than you realize. I would also say on behalf of "Fundies" everywhere that sometimes our understanding does not translate to good manners or erudite writing, but that is an inaccurate gauge by which to measure the validity of their beliefs. (I say "their" because I don't know if your definition of "Fundie" includes me or not, Chris). If you are a former "conservative Fundamentalist," you may be familiar with the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, in which he encourages a junior devil to tempt a young man into disbelief in God based on the objectionable appearance and character of certain believers in Christ.
To Anonymous above--
You talked about taking Chris one step further. In which direction do you mean? How do you know you've struck the right balance between rigid fundamentalism and laid-back liberalism? Another poster said it well when she said that Jesus was "scary and dogmatic," and his message most certainly disrupted society...more than any other figure in history! If I may say so, the relativism you espouse lacks a strong foundation. No doubt you enjoy the freedom to think as you please, but on what, other than your own subjective feelings, do you conclude that "...even the ones who have written the books we hold dear)[are] skewed"? Consider Isaiah 55:9:
-"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Simply because you find a few objectionable passages based on current cultural norms means, with all due respect, next to nothing.
Having said that, I understand your revulsion at the law requiring children to be stoned, but please consider my take on the matter, which is in no way scholarly BTW, just an idea. The stoning law was indeed enacted. The Bible does not say this punishment was ever needed. One need only browse through the thousands and thousands of laws here in the US to realize that some of these crimes may never have been perpetrated. "Ah," but one may argue, "Weren't the Jews painstakingly scrupulous about carrying out their law, and is it really likely that every child behaved in the required manner to avoid stoning?" Hmm. But we are talking about a time in which children were educated about God with an intensity that can little be imagined in our culture today, and these people actually witnessed miracles...even had living relatives who were around for the parting of the Red Sea, among other miracles.
Such a people would be much less likely to engage in prohibited indiscretions (in my view). I would imagine that you or I would pay more attention to the Bible if Lake Ontario were parted to allow our grandparents to escape slavery!!!
Again, this is just my own idea and I do not suggest that this IS the proper context, but if you can imagine a possibility in which the most uncomfortable Bible passages make sense--given the proper context--then it is easy to trust that God is in control, and he is not just a God of love, but of perfect justice. The next logical step is then to trust that this God has indeed exercised his superior authority and has generously preserved a text by which to best gauge his nature and our own--the Bible.
Oh, and Chris...I really admired the way you kept your distance from the show, even while you were on it. I would love to discuss the show and the unique niche you carved out as a contestant, but I think I've gone on long enough, and this isn't the proper venue anyway.
God bless,
J. Vest
Chris, I think it's often so easy for people to put Jesus in a little box and make everything about following the "rules" about how Christians should act and believe. But then we are more like the Pharisees than anything, which is exactly opposite of the freedom found in faith in Christ. I 100% get what you're saying here. I am sick of the "us vs. them" mentality that so many people continue to have, I mean what a way to turn people off to the message of Jesus! Anyway, I'm so glad you're posting on these subjects! Keep it up! And you should check out the blog: http://swerve.lifechurch.tv. It's awesome topics from some pastors at Lifechurch.tv. I noticed your church is a multi-campus church too, so cool! Take care and God Bless!
I do believe that the Bible is divinely inspired--and that, when the original intent of any passage is known, anything contradicting it must be false. But I have never held that the Bible _exhausts_ the supply of truth. Those who insist that nothing outside the Bible is even worth knowing are close to the attitude which is illustrated by the expression "Everything that is not absolutely required is absolutely forbidden." I was once in a Christian music ministry; and I'll never forget a crotchety old church woman who insisted that, because the Bible does not specifically command us TO play electric guitars, this is the same thing as FORBIDDING us to play them. Stupidity is not holiness!
empowerfreedom@verison.net
Guys,
Thanks for commenting.
I should make it clear that I believe that the Bible is the one and only Word of God, and that it is inspired. My point was that I'm a Christian and I believe it but it still feels spooky to me...nonetheless a non-believer.
And to those who said it: yes, I agree, it much, much more than a book. That was the point of everything I was saying.
Thanks,
Chris
I think this is an extremely relevant conversation. For people like me, raised in the church, it is easy to forget the frailty of our faith. When you present to the world a "case" for your "answers" they are often missing the FAITH that is the glue that holds those "answers" together.
Our faith is not bulletproof, but neither is modern science. Maybe the life of Christ should be the movie "A Convenient Truth"
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